Talk:Federation Starfleet ranks (2370s-2380s)
Colour Have been wondering for some time, is there a reason why we use royal blue in this era, rather than a more teal colour established in canon? Is it a kuro-rpg set we use, cos I'm sure there is a teal set available. – CommodoreFisher 23:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC) :The color used here is not entirely inconsistent with what was used -- maybe could use a bit of softening, but I think Kuro's teal overdoes it some -- simply put, both are a little too extreme compared to canon -- a lot of people think that the color was very green due to the warm-but-dim lighting used in many DS9/VOY sets, but examination of the actual costumes in white light shows not much in the way of change between TNG and the rest of the TNG era. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to edit Kuro's work (which I found out the hard way when I wanted to introduce some new colors and pin shapes and he requested I stop doing so), so we'd have to start over from scratch if we wanted to change this to a corrected version. -- Captain MKB 01:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC) Dating Star Trek Online's The Path to 2409 gives a specific date for the uniform change, so why move to a less specific description? --8of5 12:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :Because even though the uniform was introduced in 2386, the old one still could have been used after 2386. Numerous examples abound with the old-style "Cage"/"Where No Man" uniforms appearing in TOS season 1; the 2350s/2360s lycra uniforms still in use in TNG seasons 3 and 4; and the old-style TNG uniforms still being seen as late as 2375 ("What You Leave Behind"), so the move is basically a catch all. Though, I'm sure Mike could explain better :) --The Doctor 15:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC) I'd think that’s appropriate when we know there is that situation. However we don’t know that is the case in 2386. We've no evidence that the two uniforms paralleled for any amount of time, and we do have a specific date for when he new uniform was introduced and Countdown showing us only that uniform in use after the change. --8of5 15:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :True, however we also don't know if that wasn't the case. Rolling out of the new uniform could have taken time, or have been done in stages. The discussion Mike and myself had about this is on his talk page, to outline our thoughts on the subject. --The Doctor 16:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC) ::I have a real simple explanation why the article was moved -- no one ever added any kind of citation or discussion with me that "2386" was from "The Path to 2409" and, since I haven't read that source, I was unaware that the date had an actual source. ::Other than that, the Doctor has stated exactly how I feel about the subject -- it seems to always take a few years to get the whole fleet on board with a new uniform issue. -- Captain MKB 16:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Then perhaps you should have opened the discussion on this talk page to seek a citation rather than moving it to a generalisation when the specific date of the previous page name must have come from somewhere even if you were unaware of the source yourself. Your discussion seems to indicate you're using the more general dating when there are not specific dates to go on and/or there evidence of a duel uniform period. There is no such evidence here, nor any good reason to assume it in a period with an abundance of replicator technology; switching uniforms is as easy as recycling the old one and replicating a new one, all of Starfleet could do it over night. The period of transition for most of the duel uniform periods isn’t a big as these generalisations anyway - Federation Starfleet ranks (2380s) is inaccurate, if they weren't even introduced until 2386 that’s more than half a decade of the described period in which the new uniform didn’t even exist. And likewise for some of the other periods of transition. --8of5 16:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :When you moved the article, there is this box called the "reason" where you could have put "this is from "The Path to 2409", you know ;) :We thought the unspecific dates explain things better, when discontinuities exist, so the Doc and I discussed the matter, and we went on with the work on the articles. :Regardless of how easy we think it should be, the fact remains that The Cage uniforms kept being seen until The Trouble With Tribbles, and Kirk and crew wore them after Vanguard got the TOS uniforms. Then Kirk and crew wore the TOS uniforms well after Starbase 10 had changed over to the TMP uniforms and then they wore the red movie uniforms while the rest of the fleet was not approved to. So its a bureaucracy thing too, but replicator explanations don't make sense when you consider that sometimes uniforms aren't available to crew even though we are pretty sure they should be able to replicate them (Bashir forgot his dress uniform in DS9 season 1, why not replicate it?) :And saying the uniforms started in the 2380s is accurate -- because 2386 is in the 2380s... -- Captain MKB 16:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC) I should have done that indeed, and should have written up something with a citation for the page. Though the history revealing and established and reliable user making that move could also have indicated it was accurate information and you could have prompted for that forgotten citation. Ok then, if not inaccurate, then disingenuous and unspecific - it implies the uniform in service for the decade, rather than a minority portion of it. Didn't the old system work from an earliest known to latest known date? That still allows for the overlap period to be covered, but also doesn't make details fuzzy. --8of5 17:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC) :It doesn't necessarily imply the uniform was in service for the whole decade, only that it was used at some point in the decade. And it is meant to be unspecific, because we are dealing with unspecific data. Disingenuous, I think that is your own misconception. :The problem was that we only had two or three dates that were fairly solid, and the rest were fuzzy on the details. Then we (Doc and I) discussed that all uniform chageovers tend to not go by the solid dates we thought we knew, regardless. It seems better to be unspecific on these points in the article title, and instead explain in the article text. And it makes the whole article group a little more in keeping with each other if we use the same type of details for the whole thing, in my opinion. -- Captain MKB 18:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC) Colour (again) Capt. Mike and had a quick pass at this a while back (see above) and left it that the blue set of science & medical ranks were okay. Now we've got a set that's half blue and half teal. I thought at first that whoever was updating them (sorry, I didn't look to see who that was!!) just hadn't gotten around to finishing, but it's been this way for a while now. Personally I don't really mind which way we go on this, but I do think we need to be consistent. – CommodoreFisher 23:16, November 6, 2009 (UTC) provisional ranks file:blu Ens prov 2373.png file:blu Lt jg prov 2373.png file:blu Lt prov 2373.png file:blu Lt Cmdr prov 2373.png file:blu Cmdr prov 2373.png file:blu Capt prov 2373.png file:red Ens prov 2373.png file:red Lt jg prov 2373.png file:red Lt prov 2373.png file:red Lt Cmdr prov 2373.png file:red Cmdr prov 2373.png file:red Capt prov 2373.png file:yel Ens prov 2373.png file:yel Lt jg prov 2373.png file:yel Lt prov 2373.png file:yel Lt Cmdr prov 2373.png file:yel Cmdr prov 2373.png file:yel Capt prov 2373.png A while back it occurred to us that there had never been provisional ranks shown with these uniforms -- they're removed from the main list -- but the whole set had been uploaded. I think we could probably delete these, but i'm listing them here in case anyone thinks they are worth saving (and to keep them off the unused images page) -- captainmike 69px 14:37, November 4, 2018 (UTC) :Unfortunately, the provisional rank pins are unavailable in STO, so we can't extrapolate from that. As we've only ever seen the proviso ranks with Voyager's Maquis crew, I don't know if we have enough wiggle room to consider them as 'existing'. Voyager didn't switch to the FC uniform after contact was made, but surely they'd have updated any insignia. So, keeping them until returning to Earth may indicate they still exist, we just did not see them due to the highly specialised use. Like the director insignia. Kind regards, -- Markonian 21:36, November 4, 2018 (UTC) ::Yeah, that about sums it up, but you forget one thing: Voyager's return meant immediate commissions and promotions for all provisional rank-holders - so they wouldnt have used these -- captainmike 69px 22:20, November 4, 2018 (UTC) :::What Markonian was talking about was that, to him, the fact that all of the Maquis kept their provisional ranks even after contact with home was reestablished via long range comms and they were not immediately promoted at that time already (via subspace conference, I guess), means that these ranks continued to exist with the FC uniforms. :::And he seems to think that the pins for provisional ranks with the FC uniforms look exactly the same as the pins for provisional ranks for the VOY uniform. There is no proof for that, though. There is proof that the pins for commissioned ranks are the same across the two uniform styles (even going as far back as the TNG uniform), but I submit that it does not neccessarily follow that the same is true for the provisional ranks. We have seen rank pins change across uniform styles, notably the admiralty pins from early TNG to later versions. :::In conclusion, we do not know what provisional rank pins look like for the FC uniform and I believe we should not assume. To use Markonian's words, I'm certain that we do not "have enough wiggle room" here. I vote that these images be deleted. - Bell'Orso (talk) 11:56, November 21, 2018 (UTC)